Interview with Josh Goldenhar on The Industrial Talk Podcast with Scott MacKenzie
Josh Goldenhar Interview
Josh Goldenhar, VP Product, joined The Industrial Talk Podcast with Scott MacKenzie to talk about Lightbits Labs and LightOS. Listen to the conversation here.
Mon, 3/29 11:36AM • 33:11
SPEAKERS: Scott MacKenzie, Josh Goldenhar
Scott MacKenzie 00:04
Welcome to the industrial talk podcast with Scott MacKenzie. Scott is a passionate industry professional dedicated to transferring cutting edge industry focused innovations and trends while highlighting the men and women who keep the world moving. So put on your hard hat, grab your work boots, and let’s go. Alright, welcome to the industrial talk podcast. Another journey into why industry is so cool. We love you here on this particular podcast. You know why because you’re bold, you’re brave, you dare greatly. you’re solving problems, you collaborate, you innovate, you’re doing everything you can to make this world a better place. That’s what you guys are doing. You’re changing lives. Big time, big time. All right, in the hot seat, we’ve got a gentleman by the name of Josh goldenhar, that’s g o l d e n h a r.
Scott MacKenzie 00:55
Group, great stack card out there. We’re going to be talking about storage. But you’re gonna say to yourself, Scott, we already got that cloud, we already got that on prem, we’ve got everything that is available in storage, I’m telling you,
Scott MacKenzie 01:08
Scott MacKenzie 01:11
They’ve got an incredible and innovative solution. Let’s get cracking.
Scott MacKenzie 01:17
So all of this industrial for Dotto, this journey, this digitization, this digital transformation requires What? That’s right. Storage, you need storage, because you’re pulling in that data, it’s a data-driven dog on
Scott MacKenzie 01:32
environment that we’re living in because in that data in that data is definitely the nuggets of gold, the real value. And you’re going to have to be able to do it in such a way that it makes it easy and simple and fast. Now,
Scott MacKenzie 01:49
the folks at like bits, like bits lab, right, they’ve come up with a solution that has speed, no latency. I mean, they’ve got some speed, they’ve got it’s scalable, right, because you just don’t know you need just today, it looks like whatever Ryan is, looks like this, whatever. And but it needs to be scalable, you need to have that flexibility. And the solutions that we have today might not be as scalable. And then of course, with that is flexibility might need more might be less than or whatever it might be whatever the business desires, because, again, you are here to educate you are here to collaborate with people like Josh, and you are here to innovate. And I’m telling you right now, like bits, got a great solution out there. I’m pretty stoked about it. I, I was a little nervous when we started this conversation because I said to myself, Scott, you’re biting off a little bit more than you can chew. But I’m telling you, they made it easy. They made it easy to understand. And really the fact that it is important before we get into that conversation, remember, industrial talk.com two-dot o now what we’re doing is we’re creating a platform for you, the industrial professional, right? It’s you, industrial professional, the manufacturing professionals, the technology professionals, everything that is all about what we do here at industrial talk, because I’ve come to realize in this pandemic, and in this journey that we’re on one that we’re all bound with got ties to each other. That is where it lies. That is where we’re at. Right right there. And if we don’t have a desire to constantly learn, because I’ve tell you, Josh, light bits and others are just constantly, constantly innovating, that requires us to learn more, and see where this innovation really helps us. But we have to collaborate because our ability to be able to tie together are bound here.
Scott MacKenzie 04:02
We just need to do that, right? Just makes sense. And it makes you the business the future brighter. I’m just telling you right away. That’s what industrial talk to Dotto. So as we go through this process of changing things around, just be mindful of that because if you want to connect with Josh, go out there. He’s out there. He wants to collaborate with you. Alright, let’s get going. All right.
Scott MacKenzie 04:27
You know what’s cool about his LinkedIn profile, you spell Josh Goldenhar. You’ll find them. Not many Josh goldenhar’s out there. So he’s got a great name, great company, like bits, labs, doing some spectacular stuff. We can get all geeky on it. But the reality is, is that storage is important, especially in this digital transformation world we live in and they have a solution that has that’s speedy, right, scalable and flexible. How can you complain about that? All right. Enjoy the interview with Josh, Josh. Welcome to the
Josh Goldenhar 05:00
Industrial talk podcast, you’re calling, I guess call it can we say zoom is a call? Yes, we can say zoom as a call. It sort of doesn’t feel just right. But you’re always in Hawaii right now. Yes. Yes. I’m very lucky to live here. Yeah, that’s right. And so if you want to complain about your, your area and all that stuff, nobody’s gonna listen to it. I just wanted to get that one right off, right out there. So if he starts complaining don’t listen to him.
Josh Goldenhar 05:26
Absolutely. There’s lots of reasons not to listen to me, by the way. So it’s just one of them. Yeah, I have the same problem. My family is a classic example. They just don’t. Yep. So for the listeners out there, Josh, give us a little background on who you are. And, you know, would you come from? So? Well, actually, I was raised in California, but down in Southern California, and always had a knack for computers. One day thought about going up to Silicon Valley. So self-taught in computers actually have a degree in cognitive psychology. Though I’ve been in computers my entire life. And I minor in philosophy, which actually does very well if you’re in marketing because it helps you really create these believable, it’s true, I didn’t realize how important marketing is. And, you know, I went through my little education and, and go through marketing, I can never understand it until you’re in business, you realize, and this is pretty powerful stuff. And it’s human. It’s a human conversation. Anyway, I digress. Continue. Oh, but anyway, so I just ended up you know, being a computer’s did systems administration, it went into Unix and Linux. And then I made the jump to the dark side, going over from the customer space to the vendor space.
Josh Goldenhar 06:46
In about 2004, I think it was. So I did that and have been on that vendor side specializing in storage. So I’ve got something like 30 years of storage experience. And now currently, of course, culminating and being the VP of product, which encompasses product management and Product Marketing here at like this labs, you’ve seen a lot of changes that have taken place in the storage world, it was seemed like to me there one day, this storage was expensive, and then I wake up the next day and on something happened. And it’s not that expensive. I don’t know what happened. It’s dead? Well,
Josh Goldenhar 07:27
you’re absolutely right. And what seems to happen is it comes in waves.
Josh Goldenhar 07:31
It gets really, really cheap. And then someone finds how to make it expensive again. And that one becomes really inexpensive. And so we go through these cycles. And you’re absolutely right, that the cycles aren’t just in this in reducing cost. It’s also in the way you deploy. And I think we’ll end up talking about that today.
Scott MacKenzie 07:50
So let me frame this particular question. I’ve had a number of conversations, I have a number of conversations that evolve and revolve around industry for Dido, and really, in short industry for Dotto is a data-centric solution outside of Don’t, don’t come chirping at me, but I’m trying to simplify it. But it is a collection of data. And being able to have that data in a form that I can make tactical decisions. But every time everybody starts talking about that, that to me is a storage challenge. Because I’m just sitting there God,
Josh Goldenhar 08:23
haven’t Data, Data, Data, Data data, and then it becomes slow, and then it becomes pain in the button all that stuff. Yep, absolutely. And you’re right, the the holy grail of the industry is, is phrased as let’s move the compute to the data, rather than having to move the data. So it’s very common that you have the data in one place. And when you when you want to analyze that data or do something with it, very often you copy it from whatever repository it’s in to another location, and then you process it. And so the holy grail, so to speak, is to get to that point where you don’t move the data you move to compute now you’re not literally moving around, of course, you’re just using the power of networking, and different fabrics to actually have the compute have access to that, that data in its location rather than having to copy the data to a new location. And that’s something by the way you can do with life. But yeah, so here’s, here’s how I look at it. And and I’m going to definitely oversimplify it, however, so I have in a business on prem, right? So I have an on prem solution. And then the cloud comes down, and now I am sort of shifting to the the the cloud. And that’s where storage is and it’s happening. And now he did explain to me where this all is going. Because now all of a sudden everybody’s saying, okay, go to the cloud, but that’s really not possibly the right solution to a certain extent. Talk to us a little bit about lipids. Sure. So the cloud is a powerful thing. It’s not going away. And it absolutely, positively has
Josh Goldenhar 10:00
Great purpose. But hopefully for a lot of your listeners, they may think that for certain workloads, they don’t make sense to go to the cloud. And the things that don’t make sense to go to the cloud are things that are very, very time sensitive, especially on a shop floor in a manufacturing process, when you’re doing work that is sensitive, or maybe even because of privacy controls, you know, as the world is dividing more along political lines, for example, there are rules in the European Union that say that for privacy, the data must be stored also on servers that are in the European Union.
Josh Goldenhar 10:41
And so you can’t, they can’t necessarily have certain bits of data stored in a data center in the United States, on Amazon. And this forces one of two things, either Amazon has to open a data center in those countries, or companies have to decide there’s just certain data I’m going to still keep on premises. And so that can be again, because of privacy concerns, because of performance, because of proprietary nature, that in risks and security. So there’s all sorts of reasons and and a lot of those reasons are if you have to do things at the edge,
Josh Goldenhar 11:12
that are what’s called latency-sensitive. And what I mean by that is, imagine you have imagine you have a shop floor, and you have devices providing telemetry that are going to a central monitoring system. And this could be for just checking quality, it could be if the line has to be stopped. These are very small bits of data, it’s actually not a ton of data. But to send it all the way up to the cloud, you incur a big latency penalty, we start getting into the multiple milliseconds or 10s of milliseconds of round trip time. And then if you’re doing those analytics in the cloud, you’re waiting for the data to get up there. And then when there’s an event, like, oh, there’s a board that’s misaligned. And if we don’t stop the line, we’re going to get into jam and it can hurt the equipment, right? You don’t want to have to wait for that response to come all the way back from the cloud. So you have a delay for the data going up. And you have a delay for the response coming down. So this is a notion of latency, people often confuse bandwidth and latency. Your cable providers and your internet providers are screaming at you via commercials in any way they can, oh increase from you know, we now support 200 gigabit per second we support 400 gigabit per second, we support, you know, she’s on 10 megabits per second, and we support gigabit fiber. And you’re going oh my god, this is so fantastic. Well, so the amount of megabits or gigabits is, you can think of like a plumbing pipe is the size of the pipe is what is the diameter, big is a, it’s the amount that can move through. So it’s voluminous, it’s very big. But you can also understand that if you have a really big pipe, the speed at which the water is going through the pipe can actually be very slow. So if you’re thinking about individual molecules of water, on how long they take to get from one pipe from one end of the pipe, to the other end of the pipe, that’s latency. So you could move a massive amount of water, that’s bandwidth through that pipe. But if it takes 10 minutes to get from one end of the pipe to the other, that may not meet your needs. So this latency is how long it takes to do the entire distance. bandwidth is the total volume you can move. You know, it’s scary me, I actually understand that explanation, you did an excellent job.
Josh Goldenhar 13:39
I like analogy, I’m coming to your job. Now I’m coming. So to take it all the way to the end. Now latency is really one that is one of our specialties. It’s when you is when you have to, especially if anything, give you small bits of data. Oftentimes, it’s very important for the speed of how fast you can return a result on that small bit of data, rather than how much data you can move at once. See, that’s that’s really very interesting. And it’s interesting how far we’ve come as, as people as businesses, that milliseconds are frustrating, because they add up. And it’s like I like that latency is it absolutely drives me crazy. And in fact, I’ll go outside, it’s like if I can’t get on, I can’t stand it’s too long. And it might just be a second, but I can feel like I can but you you brought up a very good point. Latency really affects you when your operations are one after the other. We call this being a sequential operation. So when but when one operation has to complete before the next one can happen, and then before the next one can happen. You’re basically doing everything one at a time. Well, that’s where latency is critical. Again, to use analogy. It’s like when you go to the DMV, and there’s only one person and you’re waiting and they can only have
Josh Goldenhar 15:00
to one person well what becomes important to you is how long each person at the window takes because the lower the time that each person takes the faster you will get to the head of the queue whereas now sometimes the other way to deal with that is if you can imagine a dmv i know a lot of us can’t do you can imagine a dmv that
Josh Goldenhar 15:20
was rising now it had 20 yes it had 20 windows open all at once they can serve as many more people simultaneously but sometimes you just don’t have that luxury and that’s the same thing in compute some there are some parts of compute that can be what’s called parallelized or done doing multiple things simultaneously but there’s other times where they have to happen one at a time and that’s where latency is really key so this is interesting and and granted josh i’ve had this conversation not not with storage or anything else but just with industry for dotto and it’s great it’s a brave new world and it’s data and we’re gonna analyze the data it’s all that good and everybody’s saying the future and the future is in the cloud and that’s fine but then when when we start talking about the the critical
Josh Goldenhar 16:11
critical data the speed to looking at that data then you’re you’re going right back to on prem but you know but but i don’t want to go down the road of saying alright i got an on prem i got to build this thing out it’s got to be big and bulky and why is yours so different your solution is so different well it’s a lot of things are happening when you say big and bulky what often comes to mind is a a proprietary what we used to think of as a storage array a product from a company that is that is maybe multiple units maybe it’s a full rack maybe it’s not there are definitely smaller units out there but you’re buying essentially a black box and you have to have a special place to put that and then when you buy that black box you might be beholden to that vendor to this goes back to what you said about the cost of storage coming down you may know that you can buy a particular disk drive or flash drive at a given price so let’s you know let’s say you think you can buy it on the open market at 20 cents per gigabyte and but because you’ve bought a proprietary appliance that vendor says oh well we we qualify the drives and have a very special firmware and process and long story short you can’t just take anything off the shelf or you buy an amazon or or or even from a more reputable commercial vendor
Josh Goldenhar 17:36
should say more reputable than say a commercial focus vendor so you’re buying from someone who sells to industry such as a reseller
Josh Goldenhar 17:46
the you buy that and it could cost you 20 cents per gigabyte but they say no you have to buy from us and we’re gonna charge you 50 cents or $1 per gigabyte and you just end up having no choice so it’s all about choice as we move to the cloud
Josh Goldenhar 18:02
people want to also have some of that same flexibility in their own data centers yeah if you if you look at anything about the way amazon or microsoft or google is built out it’s all built out on standard servers there’s no proprietary appliances in there so why should you do the same thing in your own data center and that’s where we shine is that we allow you to use off the shelf servers standard ethernet that everyone is familiar with standard tcp ip protocol there’s nothing exotic it’s very easy and in a very short amount of time on servers of your choice that you’re familiar with and you’re familiar on how to manage the networks are connected to you can deploy a very high performance low latency storage that’s very easy to use and you can make mistakes by the way so you can start small and you can grow our clustered solution later if you need more either performance or capacity and you can even start with a minimum number of drives and add drives over time so not only are we not proprietary
Josh Goldenhar 19:08
in letting you save money by using common off the shelf components we’re also not exotic so you’re not going to have to learn a lot of new concepts and whatnot to on that protocol see i like that i like that solution so i can sit there and say as a as a business owner i could say well i can i know i’ll throw this out to you josh can I have some of my work being sent to the cloud and then have sort of a portfolio of storage solutions i’ll have on-prem I have some clouds I’ve got can I do that absolutely yeah this is not a it’s not an either or it’s very common in fact the term that folks are using for this is either hybrid cloud or multi cloud
Josh Goldenhar 19:51
there’s arguments there’s arguments on whether or not you know one term means the other but but hybrid cloud is the notion that you have some on prem and issue you
Josh Goldenhar 20:00
Do you do some workloads in cloud? Some people think multi cloud means that you have the ability to move from cloud to cloud, like from Amazon to Google or, or to Azure. Sure. But multi cloud can also simply mean that you run a private cloud in your own data center. And then you also have the ability to move some of those workloads to a public cloud vendor. So but at the end of the day,
Josh Goldenhar 20:25
it’s it’s not limited, you can definitely do both. You can have some on premise or private cloud, or if you want to call it enterprise or traditional IT, insert your favorite name there. These things can definitely be used together. And oftentimes, that’s a good way to do it is you pay dearly for performance in the cloud.
Josh Goldenhar 20:46
We recent we had released a press release earlier this year, I think it was in January, when Amazon announced much higher performance for their cloud block storage product called EBS or elastic block storage. And they announced that they were basically doubling the effective performance of their what’s called the IO two instances is a lot of acronyms. I apologize for that. Basically, we got something faster over here, we have something faster. Well, in our press release, we announced that Hey, guys, we’re already like six times faster than that.
Scott MacKenzie 21:20
And, and way less expensive. So can you move to the cloud? Absolutely. But getting to the higher performance levels, and especially lower latency becomes very costly in the cloud. So interesting problem, you brought up something that I’ve never thought of, is like, let’s say you do and you shift everything to clouds, this knows your business, right up there, wherever that is, it’s being stored over here. And then because of that, there’s a point of leverage with these companies have on you, they just like, Hey, you want better service? Well, it’s gonna cost you a little bit more if you want. And I and it’s sort of, but your solution, you can still have that it’s okay, you can look at the portfolio of your data. So yeah, we don’t need performance here. We’ll just stick it over here. But we need performance here because we’re pulling in operational data that requires us to look at it quickly. Right? Okay. Yes, well, that goes here. And then you can short and then what also here is that I don’t have to go with a 500 gigabyte
Scott MacKenzie 22:24
terabyte, I can I can scale it to what is really needed. And then if my business requirements change, I just, I can add to it.
Josh Goldenhar 22:35
Exactly, yeah, you can start you do have to have an appreciation for the level of performance, we are using a newer kind of flash storage. And so it is a flash storage is more expensive than spinning drive storage. So let’s you know, let’s let’s be clear there, we have a knack for being able to use the least expensive flash happens to be called q LC but you don’t have to worry about what that means. That just means at the end of the day, that’s the the cheapest grade of flash. Now being the cheapest grade of flash, it has some some issues compared to other flash that is it’s a little slower on write speeds for it to be actually significantly slower write speeds. And all flash has a so to speak an expiration date, or really the the number of times that you can write to it is limited. This is known as endurance. And these cheaper drives don’t last as long you cannot write as much to them. But light os are products from light bits labs does make use of these least expensive drives. So it lets you choose this critical cheap media but we extend the life of that media by up to five times. So this is another way that you can get very very high performance with us and yet it can be less costly. As much as it can be half the cost of similar proprietary arrays at at the same usable capacities.
Scott MacKenzie 24:03
So I’m geeking out on this. I think this is pretty cool. How can I go I mean I just want a flash drive now no I just all of a sudden now I want to go to Home Depot off not right Best Buy get a flash drive just because. Right and that’s
Josh Goldenhar 24:17
and you know, but it’s funny you say that but that’s what we’re actually seeing happening if you go back to when we started this discussion. We talked about cycles and being well having an upgrade my beard that shows how long I’ve been knocking around here. The the I went through the stage where we did what was called das direct attached storage. Yes, this this was a spinning drives.
Scott MacKenzie 24:43
I don’t know I got it. I got a two terabyte drive there. It’s
Josh Goldenhar 24:47
what exactly we all do. We all be there. Anybody that has a laptop or a server at home. Desktop is doing dad’s is the disk drive that’s in their system is the directly attached storage But when we talk about Daz, we’re what we’re talking about was the tendency, even in the enterprise to say, you know, what I for the fastest access times, this is almost always what it’s about. Yeah, for fastest access times, I need lots of local drives because that’s going to give me the fastest and that holds true today.
Scott MacKenzie 25:18
I just didn’t think through it that way. But that’s exactly what it’s like. It’s not gonna be good. Another one.
Josh Goldenhar 25:23
Exactly. So and that’s what we do today. And that’s what’s happened with flash is there is no one’s gonna argue with you that the fastest way to access flash, if you have a centralized storage array, or a centralized storage from lots of different vendors, especially over your network, your Ethernet work, you might be using I scuzzy. You may love the fact that your storage is centrally managed, that any host that’s on the network can get a what we call logical volume can get something that looks like a local disk drive, but it’s actually coming over the network. What you might not like, is that performance of that you may have a performance bottleneck, especially when we’re talking about latency. Again, it’s your wish, is it and things that suffer from latency, our databases, any kind of highly transactional system, the real-time analytics. So intrusion detection for security is all these things are dependent on latency. So you’d like the convenience of using a centralized storage solution. But you’d know that well, you know what, to make it as fast as possible, I could just put flash drives inside each server. Yeah. And there are lots of programs out there now that actually support this, a lot of open-source software, especially databases supports this functionality. And so you do get that speed of access. And then some of these products, are most of them do their own data protection as well like, because the question becomes, if I have a local drive, what happens when it fails, and the drives will fail, we all know drives Oh,
Scott MacKenzie 26:57
Josh Goldenhar 26:58
So it’s not if it’s when this drive fails, what happens? Well, that the app, the application oftentimes is doing its own data protection. But each application does the data protection in its own way. So if you’re managing 10 applications, you’re now managing 10 different ways to protect your data, rather than when you had centralized storage. The applications could be dumb about how data is protected, they just assumed it was and the storage did it for you on all 10. So we combat that that’s basically with us, you get the best of the best of both worlds. You can actually have virtualized storage that performs as if it’s a local flash drive. But you’re getting all the convenience, you’re used to having centralized solutions. That is it one of the most common things to think about is if you’re gonna put flash inside a server, what size drive do you pick?
Scott MacKenzie 27:51
Yeah, oh, it had that conversation. doesn’t need to be this big. And
Josh Goldenhar 27:58
nobody ever wants to be the person that said, Who picked too small? Right? Because then you because then you’re here, you know you? What’s the technical term? You’re screwed? Yeah, that’s
Scott MacKenzie 28:09
to block your site in a big way. So
Josh Goldenhar 28:10
so that so everybody chooses to large? Well, what does that mean? Does it mean you pay for the capacity that you’re not using? Yeah, you might use it. And if you end up being perfect one day, you might be perfect. There might be that one person out there that said, I planned out and we needed exactly eight terabytes. And that’s the size of the drives, and everything was great. And if you’re out there shaking your head right now saying that never happens. Yeah, you’re right.
Scott MacKenzie 28:38
And if you’re saying, You’re lying, you’re lying.
Josh Goldenhar 28:42
Exactly. So we give you the ability to have what looks like a local disk drive, or local flash drive. Yeah, but it can be resized, if you make a mistake, you can virtually resize it, you just run a command and it gets larger. If that server does your application on dies, you can reload the application on a completely different server. And you still access the very same data over the network. So this frees you from tying applications to certain servers. And lastly, even for those applications that do their own data protection, you can either choose for them not to do data protection, or you can still go ahead and put that data on our systems. And we will not do our replication week you can turn off our replication, but will still protect against the drive failure. The reason this is important is if you have any application, and it’s doing its own data protection, when that drive fails, it will recover the entire contents of that drive to another system that goes over your network. So and what’s the most common bit for failing? It’s a drive.
Scott MacKenzie 29:51
Josh Goldenhar 29:52
So we protect against a drive failure and we really take care of that failure inside that server and it never goes out over your network for that drive here, we rebuild the missing data inside the server. So it doesn’t impact your network. So these are all reasons to, to go to this.
Scott MacKenzie 30:10
I love the niche that you guys are serving. I think that that’s interesting. The conversations I’ve had over a few years, they were talking about on prem cloud, where do we go? What do we do? What do we process? You’ve come up with a solution that is that addresses speed, because speed is important. I want it back. I want it yesterday. I want fast, right? And I want it to be scalable. Because I don’t know what my bit I see my business today. But what is it my business look like tomorrow? I don’t have an answer. But I want that scalability. And then finally, it’s flexible. Very, and I love that. And so individuals or companies who are listening to this particular podcast, FYI, it doesn’t have to be, you know, a binary decision of like, Okay, I gotta be here. And then in some in the, you can talk to Josh, light bits lab, and be able to come up with a solution, a storage solution that truly meets your business needs.
Josh Goldenhar 31:09
Scott MacKenzie 31:11
I love that. I love that. Because you brought up some good points about the fact that who’s gonna make the decision? Is it a terabyte? And I don’t know, I don’t want to be all of a sudden I’m sick. I don’t have to come on in. You make that decision. That type of thing. Yes. I love it. Are you active out there on LinkedIn?
Josh Goldenhar 31:29
That Well, I’m on LinkedIn like that’s, of course is also on Twitter. At our handle is is light bits. We’re on LinkedIn, light bits, labs. And then I of course am on LinkedIn as well.
Scott MacKenzie 31:41
You got it. Alright, listeners. No, do not come to me and complain that you can’t get a hold of Josh. This is mad. This is mad innovation, mad technology. Josh comes with 30 plus years of experience. Josh, thank you very much for being on the industrial talk podcast.
Josh Goldenhar 31:57
It’s been a pleasure. It’s been fun. Thanks.
Scott MacKenzie 31:59
All right, listeners. We’re gonna wrap it up on the other side. Do not go away. You will have all the contact information for Josh. So stay tuned.
You’re listening to the industrial talk Podcast Network.
Scott MacKenzie 32:16
All right. Kudos to Josh Goldenhar and the team lightbits lab a heck of an innovation, especially in this world of digital transformation you need that scalable solution. And they’ve got it it’s, it’s fast, scalable, and flexible. To meet your digital transformation needs. Go out to industrial talk and connect with Josh golden Harless as you are now I want you to remember industrial talk to Dotto. It’s where you’re going to educate, you’re going to collaborate, you’re going to innovate. You’re going to hang out with people who want to do that and who are passionate about making that happen because that’s what the future is about. We are bound together with God ties. Big, big time. All right, be bold, be brave, dare greatly hang out with bold, brave and daring greatly people if you’re going to change the world. Thank you for joining and we’re going to be back with another great interview shortly.